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	<title>Comments on: So, what is it that you do?  Part One.</title>
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	<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/</link>
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		<title>By: magpie</title>
		<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-2514</link>
		<dc:creator>magpie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/?p=3571#comment-2514</guid>
		<description>This is fascinating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is fascinating.</p>
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		<title>By: eli</title>
		<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-2512</link>
		<dc:creator>eli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/?p=3571#comment-2512</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the clarification. The consortium actually broke down race into the following (and yes it was more market issue based but none-the-less we didn&#039;t just go black, white, hispanic)
Latino-US Born
Latino-Foreign Born
Latino-Spanish dominant
Latino-Mixed, Spanish preferred
Latino-Mixed, English preferred
Latino-English dominant
We then broke out education level and urban vs. rural. 
We then also broke out african american by education, urban vs. rural, AND this was the interesting one that brought up a fun (roll eyes here) but difficult reality check...marital status! We found single women in this group with education were more likely to be homeowners than married women with educaton.
We didn&#039;t need to go into birth weight or those factors as we were much more concerned with how survey results in general are skewed by the respondents language, ethnic and socioeconomic background etc. It was eye opening. 
God I wish I lived near you so we could go have a good discussion about this over coffee...
MOVE TO LA to do some research!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the clarification. The consortium actually broke down race into the following (and yes it was more market issue based but none-the-less we didn&#8217;t just go black, white, hispanic)<br />
Latino-US Born<br />
Latino-Foreign Born<br />
Latino-Spanish dominant<br />
Latino-Mixed, Spanish preferred<br />
Latino-Mixed, English preferred<br />
Latino-English dominant<br />
We then broke out education level and urban vs. rural.<br />
We then also broke out african american by education, urban vs. rural, AND this was the interesting one that brought up a fun (roll eyes here) but difficult reality check&#8230;marital status! We found single women in this group with education were more likely to be homeowners than married women with educaton.<br />
We didn&#8217;t need to go into birth weight or those factors as we were much more concerned with how survey results in general are skewed by the respondents language, ethnic and socioeconomic background etc. It was eye opening.<br />
God I wish I lived near you so we could go have a good discussion about this over coffee&#8230;<br />
MOVE TO LA to do some research!</p>
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		<title>By: jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-2510</link>
		<dc:creator>jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/?p=3571#comment-2510</guid>
		<description>lovely first post - i&#039;m looking forward to reading more, holly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lovely first post &#8211; i&#8217;m looking forward to reading more, holly.</p>
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		<title>By: lisa paul</title>
		<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-2507</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/?p=3571#comment-2507</guid>
		<description>Whew! Lots of this was over my head, but I&#039;m glad I read through it (twice). It&#039;s good to know a researcher is asking these kinds of questions. And I like one of your conclusions (warnings) that seeing a different pattern by race may not mean the simplistic conclusion. In other words, you don&#039;t necessarily go to the doctor less frequently because you are black. But there may be subtle societal pressures or differences in care/attitudes in the health care profession that influence, by race, how frequently you go to the clinic. Lots of food for thought here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whew! Lots of this was over my head, but I&#8217;m glad I read through it (twice). It&#8217;s good to know a researcher is asking these kinds of questions. And I like one of your conclusions (warnings) that seeing a different pattern by race may not mean the simplistic conclusion. In other words, you don&#8217;t necessarily go to the doctor less frequently because you are black. But there may be subtle societal pressures or differences in care/attitudes in the health care profession that influence, by race, how frequently you go to the clinic. Lots of food for thought here.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-2506</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/?p=3571#comment-2506</guid>
		<description>Hi Eli, I&#039;m glad you&#039;re asking questions.

For 1.  In reference to health research, there is never one &quot;direct&quot; cause to any problem.  In a multi-variate model, the idea is to understand how the myriad of issues contribute to a problem and determine effective interventions based on what the data show.  And like any scientific approach, you must have complete control over your variables at the most elemental level in order -- that means you must know what they mean, know that they are measuring exactly what you intend for them to measure, and know that you are measuring absolutely everything that is contributing to your outcome.  Only then can you be sure that your results are not skewed.  We view racial categories so routinely that we rarely question what they mean -- when in reality, they mean NOTHING, or at least, they mean nothing in terms of what we think they are suppose to mean.  Even worse, when we set out to do research, we don&#039;t clearly define what we are attempting to measure within that variable.  Plain and simple: it&#039;s not good science.  You shouldn&#039;t take anything for granted -- you should know what it is and what it is measuring.  And question, question, revisit, change, and question again.  That is the practice of a good scientist.

For example, in your study -- granted, I&#039;m guessing it was for market issues, which is much different both in epistemology and in how you were conceptually approaching your study hypothesis -- but none the less, in your study, how did you define race?  Was it on skin color?  If so, then what about Black Latinos?  Was anyone that speaks Spanish, regardless of skin color, categorized as Hispanic?  If so, then was race based on linguistic differences, or skin color?  What about folks from the Indian subcontinent?  Were they lumped with Asians?  How about Hawaiians?  Who was included and why?  In health research, these are the kinds of considerations that come into play.  In health research, where we are looking for what makes certain people more unhealthy than others, who you put in which groups matters a lot.  In your example, it sounds like you are approaching race from a race ecology viewpoint (i.e.: race as defined by environment -- versus public health, where the epidemiologic assumption has been that we are studying race as a genotypic phenomenon).   Race ecology is a more popular and growing science that is just reaching public health studies.  (Actually, I would LOVE to apply race ecology principles to health outcomes -- probably something like birthweight -- stratified by race and neighborhood through the NOLA area... studies have suggested that the more racially segregated an urban area, the worse the health outcomes for ALL races.  NOLA is just about the perfect place to test this... IMO.)  ANYWAY.  The biomedical model public health works from is somewhat antiquated in how it approaches stuff like race -- mostly because the hold on the excuse of genetics is just way too easy.  Tempting to just chalk it up to genetics and move on, rather than really be forced to study the nuances of environment and social causes of health inequalities.  The bottom line is that the &quot;why?&quot; of persistent health inequalities is simply much too difficult to easy capture in a statistical survey, we simply don&#039;t have the tools or conceptualization of the mechanisms to really know how to measure it... so it&#039;s easier to just say it&#039;s genetics and move on.  But the policy implications can be terrible.

2. Population geneticists have been working with theories of &quot;continental races&quot; as the reasons for things like sickle cell (1 in 12 African Americans are carriers) -- nonwhites are commonly lactose intolerant (highest in Asians, if I remember right?)  But the bottom line is that the science is completely inconclusive.  I really respect Richard Cooper&#039;s work on genetics, race, and public health -- he is a cardiology specialist and epidemiologist and approaches science ethically and rationally.  There is an article that specficcally addresses your question that I like... it&#039;s a few years old now (2003) but very succinctly brings all of the issues together.  I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;s on his website (or I can send you the article in PDF) -- the link that you want is the 2003 International Journal of Epidemiology Commentary on Race, it&#039;s called something like &quot;New Wine, Old Bottles&quot;.   http://www.meddean.luc.edu/depts/prevmed/Main/Faculty/RSC.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Eli, I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re asking questions.</p>
<p>For 1.  In reference to health research, there is never one &#8220;direct&#8221; cause to any problem.  In a multi-variate model, the idea is to understand how the myriad of issues contribute to a problem and determine effective interventions based on what the data show.  And like any scientific approach, you must have complete control over your variables at the most elemental level in order &#8212; that means you must know what they mean, know that they are measuring exactly what you intend for them to measure, and know that you are measuring absolutely everything that is contributing to your outcome.  Only then can you be sure that your results are not skewed.  We view racial categories so routinely that we rarely question what they mean &#8212; when in reality, they mean NOTHING, or at least, they mean nothing in terms of what we think they are suppose to mean.  Even worse, when we set out to do research, we don&#8217;t clearly define what we are attempting to measure within that variable.  Plain and simple: it&#8217;s not good science.  You shouldn&#8217;t take anything for granted &#8212; you should know what it is and what it is measuring.  And question, question, revisit, change, and question again.  That is the practice of a good scientist.</p>
<p>For example, in your study &#8212; granted, I&#8217;m guessing it was for market issues, which is much different both in epistemology and in how you were conceptually approaching your study hypothesis &#8212; but none the less, in your study, how did you define race?  Was it on skin color?  If so, then what about Black Latinos?  Was anyone that speaks Spanish, regardless of skin color, categorized as Hispanic?  If so, then was race based on linguistic differences, or skin color?  What about folks from the Indian subcontinent?  Were they lumped with Asians?  How about Hawaiians?  Who was included and why?  In health research, these are the kinds of considerations that come into play.  In health research, where we are looking for what makes certain people more unhealthy than others, who you put in which groups matters a lot.  In your example, it sounds like you are approaching race from a race ecology viewpoint (i.e.: race as defined by environment &#8212; versus public health, where the epidemiologic assumption has been that we are studying race as a genotypic phenomenon).   Race ecology is a more popular and growing science that is just reaching public health studies.  (Actually, I would LOVE to apply race ecology principles to health outcomes &#8212; probably something like birthweight &#8212; stratified by race and neighborhood through the NOLA area&#8230; studies have suggested that the more racially segregated an urban area, the worse the health outcomes for ALL races.  NOLA is just about the perfect place to test this&#8230; IMO.)  ANYWAY.  The biomedical model public health works from is somewhat antiquated in how it approaches stuff like race &#8212; mostly because the hold on the excuse of genetics is just way too easy.  Tempting to just chalk it up to genetics and move on, rather than really be forced to study the nuances of environment and social causes of health inequalities.  The bottom line is that the &#8220;why?&#8221; of persistent health inequalities is simply much too difficult to easy capture in a statistical survey, we simply don&#8217;t have the tools or conceptualization of the mechanisms to really know how to measure it&#8230; so it&#8217;s easier to just say it&#8217;s genetics and move on.  But the policy implications can be terrible.</p>
<p>2. Population geneticists have been working with theories of &#8220;continental races&#8221; as the reasons for things like sickle cell (1 in 12 African Americans are carriers) &#8212; nonwhites are commonly lactose intolerant (highest in Asians, if I remember right?)  But the bottom line is that the science is completely inconclusive.  I really respect Richard Cooper&#8217;s work on genetics, race, and public health &#8212; he is a cardiology specialist and epidemiologist and approaches science ethically and rationally.  There is an article that specficcally addresses your question that I like&#8230; it&#8217;s a few years old now (2003) but very succinctly brings all of the issues together.  I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;s on his website (or I can send you the article in PDF) &#8212; the link that you want is the 2003 International Journal of Epidemiology Commentary on Race, it&#8217;s called something like &#8220;New Wine, Old Bottles&#8221;.   <a href="http://www.meddean.luc.edu/depts/prevmed/Main/Faculty/RSC.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.meddean.luc.edu/depts/prevmed/Main/Faculty/RSC.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: eli</title>
		<link>http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/2009/01/05/so-what-is-it-that-you-do-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-2504</link>
		<dc:creator>eli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coldspaghetti.org/blog/?p=3571#comment-2504</guid>
		<description>Two questions:
1. Race may not be the direct cause of the problem but it is the independent variable influencing the problem. We found in our consortium that when we controlled for all the items you mention above race did seem unimportant at the skin level. BUT we did notice that it directly influence approach to housing, neighborhoods considered, attitude towards opportunities. So how can race not be considered? I think had we not seen the race issue we would have missed a major point. We picked up that race affected the provider not the user. (So in response to prenatal care affected by race...it might better read prenatal care affected by provider perception of race and cultural expectations.

2. I&#039;m curious how our genes (I&#039;m not an MD so educate me on this one) are not influenced by race. Essentially, the majority of jewish people I know are lactose intolerant which has to be some type of a genetic mutation at some point based on their religious and racial background.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two questions:<br />
1. Race may not be the direct cause of the problem but it is the independent variable influencing the problem. We found in our consortium that when we controlled for all the items you mention above race did seem unimportant at the skin level. BUT we did notice that it directly influence approach to housing, neighborhoods considered, attitude towards opportunities. So how can race not be considered? I think had we not seen the race issue we would have missed a major point. We picked up that race affected the provider not the user. (So in response to prenatal care affected by race&#8230;it might better read prenatal care affected by provider perception of race and cultural expectations.</p>
<p>2. I&#8217;m curious how our genes (I&#8217;m not an MD so educate me on this one) are not influenced by race. Essentially, the majority of jewish people I know are lactose intolerant which has to be some type of a genetic mutation at some point based on their religious and racial background.</p>
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